How To Stop Therapist Burnout

Uriah
Welcome back to the podcast. So glad that you're listening to today. Listening to today? Listening today. So glad you are here. All right. Hello, hello. Welcome back to the podcast. This is your Ryan, and I'm so glad you're here today. I had a conversation today with my friend Dr. Connor McClanehan, and he leads Hear Counseling, which is a group co-practice in Pasadena and Los Angeles. Awesome guy. He has a background in video marketing, as well as experience speaking at conferences, retreats, podcasts, and video courses. Dr. Mcclanehan helps therapists eliminate marketing anxiety and create a compelling strategy for growing their private practice. We had a chance to get into the details about a study that Simple Practice put together called The State Therapist Report, and it talks about burnout and some very concerning things to take a look at. But also the conversation with Connor today was very, I'd say, solution-focused and oriented towards what changes can we make to be the best therapist that we can be and ensure some longevity and some well-being in our careers and just in our lives. Take a listen and check out the links in the show notes.
We have a new resource here at Productive Therapists, and we call the Magic Call Script.
It's something that we put together that we use to train our virtual assistants and the intake coordinators and other practices that will help you really just guide potential clients from that first contact to the first session. We would love for you to check it out. You can find it at productivetherapist. Com/magic. It's completely free. It comes with a couple of extra resources just to help you have those conversations, feel confident and successful, and of course, at the end of the day, help more people. Enjoy my conversation with Dr. Connor McLenahan!

Uriah
Connor, welcome to the podcast!

Connor
Hey, thanks, Uriah. Good to be here with you.

Uriah
Yeah, it's so great to talk to you. You and I have actually been on a podcast before together, but this is the first time that you're on the Productive Therapist podcast, so that's cool.

Connor
That is cool. It's been good to walk alongside you in some of this group practice and being a therapist and everything. Absolutely. The conversations that we've had over, I don't know, I guess the years now.

Uriah
It's been a few years. Yeah. You've inspired me in many ways in life and business. So thanks for that. Appreciate it.

Connor
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Uriah
So today we get to talk about some interesting things. But before we get into the topic, I would love for you just to share about who you are and maybe a little bit about your story and your practice, and then we can jump into it.

Connor
Yeah. Well, I'm a psychologist down in Los Angeles, and I have a group practice called Hear Counseling, and we're a membership-based practice, meaning that all therapists who are part of our practice, all licensed therapists, pay a flat membership fee to be part of the group. For me, that just felt like a good solution to what I see as a problem, where a lot of therapists have to choose between either taking care of themselves financially, but being alone in their practice by having to do everything by themselves, which I don't think is, at least for a lot of therapists I know, natural to them to just be off on their own, or to be part of a group and to feel really pressured with being an employee and all the things that come with that. That's just a different solution for us. But anyway, so that's what I do, and it's been meaningful to figure that out and to provide some service with therapists that way. But part of that is that I very much care about who we are as therapists and the life that we live day to day. When you think about how much time in your life or in my life are devoted to being in the office, working on the different clinical issues or even just the way that you spend your time. I think that's important. I think how we live our lives in that way is important when you zoom out and think about your entire life and what you want it to look like and how you want it to be. Those questions, I think, are important for me, for us, for the profession. How do we take care of ourselves and engage in ways that are uplifting and supportive and encouraging to help us be the best clinicians, but also best people we can be.

Uriah
That's great. I I know that you and I both have the value of really caring about the work-life balance and just the well-being of clinicians, whether they are friends of ours, colleagues of ours, or people that work for us or have worked for us in the past. That's so important. I've always thought I want to have a long career. I've seen, being a therapist, you can do this for many, many years, right? Well into your '60s, '70s, '80s, and even potentially beyond, if you're of sound of mind. All right. I think what we're talking about today is so important because it does seem like a lot of things have changed. I don't know if that's happened. Things have changed in the last 5, 10 years or even a little bit more, but it seems like it's more intense and maybe more taxing now to be a therapist than it's ever been. That's why I'm happy to talk about this topic with you. What we're talking about is burnout. I would love it if you wanted to share a framework or just an idea about what is burnout. We've all heard that term, but what does it mean to you and how does it affect us as therapists?

Connor
Yeah, totally. Well, I think, first of all, even before defining it, I think we know what that feels like. The feeling of maybe waking up on a Monday morning and being like, and picturing the day ahead, and it feels like you can't escape. You can't do anything. That's a really tricky and dangerous place to be in. Statistically and literally, that's where therapists make the most ethical mistakes. That's where we break boundaries in lots of different ways, whether it's financially or time-wise or anything. That can be a really dangerous place. But also for us personally, that's where we can spiral downward. I think we know what burn out feels It's what it looks like when we can think of our daily lives. But burnout is prolonged stress, chronically being unable to keep up with demands. When you're in that situation, you feel hopeless about the future, you feel depressed. It's like, as if you've got a pile of widgets to put together, and for every one that you get done, you get two more put on your plate to do. That's untenable. We can't stay in that position for too long without really feeling the effects of that. As I was looking at this, I think a visual that's really helpful for understanding what it's like psychologically for us when we're in burnout state is the idea of learned helplessness, which we might remember in grad school or whatever. A little while ago. A little while ago. Seligman. In the 1960s, he did this dog experiment where he had these dogs in a condition where half of them were put in one cage and half of them were put in a different cage. The first cage was one in which there would be a shock, and there's nothing the dog could do to make the shock go away. So it just shocked them, and they couldn't get out of it. There's nothing they could do. The other one, all they did, they still shocked the dogs. It's not like in that condition, It was just happy and good. But they gave a lever in there where they could press the lever to make the shock stop. There's some details about this that maybe we could go into more. But to make the shock stop. Just the ability to make the stressor stop made a huge difference in the two different dogs and how they were conditioned. Later on, when they're given a different situation in which they can just hop over a small barrier in order to avoid a shock, the dogs who didn't have a lever didn't even try to go over the barrier. They thought, It's not even going to help. If I try to cross over this bridge here, if I try to... I'm just going to get shocked anyway. That's burnout. That's what we feel When we have been in a chronic state where demands have not stopped, there's no lever that we can push. Some question I asked there is, if we're in burnout, we can think about, Okay, there's a lot of stressors. But another way that What we could think about it is there's no lever to push. What is the lever that we're supposed to push as clinicians to make the demand stop? Especially if we have financial pressures or whatever pressures that we face as clinicians or guilt, for example, it can make us feel like there's no lever that we can press in order to stop the demands that are coming our way. That makes all the difference. One way, again, is thinking of it. I think we traditionally think of burnout as there's Too many stressors. But another way to think about it is that there's no way to stop. There's no way to make us up. There's no escape. There's no safe base to go back to.

Uriah
Yeah, that's like an unfortunate combination of hopelessness and powerlessness, or at least the perception of powerlessness and that obviously tie into each other. What do you think has happened in our profession to increase this sense or this experience of burnout?

Connor
Yeah.

Uriah
That's not an easy question.

Connor
Right. No, I think there's, again, when we think about on one side, you have stress, the amount of demand that we feel as therapists. How much is their demand or need psychologically from our clients. But the other one is, and this is supported in this data that Simple Practice looked at where they surveyed all of us clinicians and got some really good info back, is the ability to press the lever. What is the lever that we're supposed to press and how has it been taken away? For the first one, there has been more demand. I mean, need for therapists has risen in a huge way with anxiety and depression rising. In the other way, isolation for therapists has increased as well. We're much more isolated from each other than we used to be, I think, for a variety We live in a very individualistic culture. But also maybe, let's say, virtual work. The more that we practice independently, the more that we have to figure out ways to really connect with other people, other therapists, or even other friends, or whatever else it is. I think usually that's when we think about human beings. I think, to me, that's the biggest lever that we have to push is relying on each other, connecting with with each other. That's the solace that we need in the middle of a storm is to be able to just have some solidarity with other people.

Uriah
That's so true. Yeah. So prolonged stress plus isolation plus the increasing need and demand and probably intensity of our clients' problems and challenges, that's not a good- Recipe. Triple threat. Yeah, For sure. I mean, thank goodness for Telehealth. I think Telehealth is amazing, and there's a lot of clinicians now that are fully Telehealth. But that doesn't work ideally for everyone, especially if you don't go out of your way to create community or connect with other clinicians. It's easy to do that when you just get busy. That's true for all of us. I think anybody who's working as a full-time therapist, you're seeing your clients and you're trying to keep things moving.

Connor
It is weird thing to try to anticipate and schedule, isn't it? To just connect with other people. It's not like you need to meet and consult about something. You just need to meet sometimes and just be face-to-face. I don't know. Even if you can do it virtually, that's good. But to just level with somebody else in an informal way is such a huge benefit that I think we take for granted sometimes. My friend and colleague here, Gavin, he hosts a gathering every other Friday, I think it is, where he and, I don't know, 15 to 30 other therapists, they just get together in The rule is no consultations.

Uriah
That's great.

Connor
He said, We end up doing it any way of talking business stuff. But it's funny to me of thinking, Man, all these therapists just come just because it feels good to connect. That's the lever that they've chosen to press during the week to help them cool down. That's great.

Uriah
We started doing some networking mixers in the area of sponsoring them. I for sure stole this name from some friends down in Orange County, but Drinks with Shrinks is just a good name. I don't think it's copyrighted, so we're doing that. We're going to do things that are non-alcoholic, too. We're going to have like Roopier Night and Mocktail Night and those things. But people, they like to come out, connect with other professionals, and yeah, hopefully not just talk about work. So critical.

Connor
Yeah, really important.

Uriah
Yeah. What policy changes or personal changes, for that or do you think are needed in our field?

Connor
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, actually, maybe before we get into that, maybe some things that inform some policy changes are just, and again, simple practice came out with this data about how therapists are doing and why therapists tend to say that they're burned out. I think this is actually pretty illuminating to think about. To even make it a bit personal and go like, Oh, this is somebody just like me who's reporting on these things. They surveyed 500 or so therapists, and they gather data. They said 52% of therapists, these are randomly sampled therapists, 52% experienced burnout this year. 29% of these have considered leaving the profession. I thought that was pretty staggering. Basically, 15% of all therapists are considering leaving because of this stuff.

Uriah
That's frightening.

Connor
Yeah, it is frightening. Then when they said why, there are a couple of top reasons, but the first one, they said 60% said that they're feeling burnt out because of difficulty with work-life balance. Around 50 said that it was administration burdens, so paperwork and all the nuts and bolts of trying to run a business, which I imagine you have stories about with the way that you do your work. Then about 50% say it's compassion fatigue, that feeling of just endless demand of clients. Other people say stressors in their personal life or dealing with insurance. But of the burnouts therapists, 84% said they need more rest and that they're emotionally drained, and 40% said that they have difficulty actually engaging in non-work activities because they're overwhelmed. I just thought that was interesting of the thing that I gleaned from that is that, just like that whole lever idea is that therapists have a difficult time being able to pull away from the work and to feel recentered on things that give them life, give them energy.

Uriah
Yeah. I don't know. It would be interesting to compare this to if there's any data from years ago to see how much it's increasing. But my guess would be that these numbers are higher than they were previously. It concerns me for many reasons. But number one, we need therapists to do well and to be well. Like you mentioned before, that the rising need and Demand might be too strong of a word, but the rising need for mental health services, we can't lose 29% of therapists. That would be terrible. We need to make some changes on a personal level, probably, and on an industry level to make sure that this job is sustainable for more people, and also, attractive and desirable for people coming into new careers.

Connor
It's hard for me to parse the work-life balance explanation because part of me goes, Okay, is it that therapists have a hard time with self-care, or is it that it's an underpaid or undervalued profession by insurance companies, let's say? I'm thinking about, how much do you say, Okay, therapists need to do a better job of setting boundaries. Then how much do you say insurance companies or whatever situations need to provide adequate pay so that therapists don't feel the pressure to overwork work themselves and burn themselves out. That's a hard thing to say. As somebody who believes in taking personal responsibility, at least for myself, I go, I want to make sure that I'm doing a good job taking care of myself. But at the same time, you go, you exist in a system that create certain incentives and create certain realities for us financially.

Uriah
Yeah, that's a difficult hamster wheel. It can be a difficult hamster wheel to be on because if you... I mean, all therapists have a ton of compassion and empathy for the people that we serve. If we could, a lot of us would work for free and offer our services for free. But we can't do that. For a therapist that wants to make their services as accessible as possible, they might say, Hey, well, I'm going to take insurance. I'm only going to work with insurance clients. Like you mentioned, sometimes that leads to very low reimbursement rates, so that therapist then has to work more to make enough to survive. That situation hardly ever improves. You don't get a notice from the insurance company that says, Hey, you're doing a great job. We're going to pay you more.

Connor
No, it doesn't. Then do we go, and then not only are you overworked, but also you need to do a better job of setting boundaries. You need to manage your self-care better. I feel a little resistant to going all the way that way and saying, It's your work life, it's your difficulty managing your work-life balance. At the same time, it's like, Man, sometimes that's all that's in our control. That's all we can do.

Uriah
Yeah, that's an interesting situation. On a personal level, I can say that for a number of years, I felt like I wanted to get therapy as a working therapist. Nothing so critical that it was an absolute need, but I was like, It would be good for me to get back into therapy. For a number of years, I didn't because I felt like I can't afford it. You could tell somebody, You need better self-care or you should get a support system system. But if it's difficult to impossible for them to get that, that's like, where's the lever?

Connor
It wasn't that you didn't value it enough or something. There's a certain reality that you're in, that I'm in, in that situation that determines how much you can actually push that love or an experience relief. Absolutely. Yeah. But I think that is difficult. It's like there is a certain reality, and then you go back on the other side, too. Sometimes our ability to push that lever to stop the demands can help us handle many more challenges than we think we can. When we can actually reconnect with a secure base, When we can actually feel connected and okay with a larger community or with close relationships or whatever else that is, I think that is where our strength lies in that we have so much more accessible to us when we're able to do that. But I do think there's a downward spiral that we get into where we feel more pressured financially, and then we can't make those decisions to take care of ourselves. We end up bending boundaries more, and we dig ourselves into a hole. I don't know if dig ourselves into a hole is the right phrase there. Find ourselves in a hole. We find ourselves in this spot. But maybe it's just even part of this conversation is just how helpful it is to just recognize or take stock of where we lie in these things as you're listening to think, how much do I struggle with this work-life balance issue? How much do I withhold myself from actually engaging in things that would be refilling to me? A couple of years ago, as I was trying to rethink some things with my business, I remember feeling really stressed and then going, You know what? As much as it sounds counterintuitive, I need to get away. I took a whole weekend for three days, and I just took... That was hard for me to It wasn't like, Oh, I have time to go do this. I had to sacrifice other things to actually do that. It was hard. But I had to tell myself from this place inside of going like, If I do this, I'm going to be able to access the part of me that needs to be there if I'm going to make a change in my life. If not, I'm going to stay in this world pool. Nothing's going to change. I remember doing that. That's what helped me feel different inside enough to be able to make the changes that I needed to in my business, in my personal life, to reorient myself. But I think it takes a lot of support to sometimes make those decisions. Wherewithal, all those things, things to reorient ourselves.

Uriah
Yeah, I'm glad you did that. That takes a ton of intentionality, too, right? To set that time aside and then use it in a way that's rejuvenating and all that thing. Especially if you... It's Especially if you have a family or other obligations, right? Totally.

Connor
I was going to say, I experienced that with you even this last year, be on a retreat with you and be able to just... Even when you don't intend to talk about whatever issues are pressing at you, the way that it's just refreshing to just pull back for a minute and to feel filled up.

Uriah
Yeah, that was a highlight for me, too. I was thinking about a time when I felt burned out. This was a number of years ago, and I was working full-time as a therapist. I think what led to my sense of burn out was I was working almost exclusively with teenage boys and their families. And this one particular time where I just looked at my calendar and I realized that it was really almost all teenage boys. They were my favorite clients, but they were super challenging because none of them wanted to be there. I was always working real hard to get them engaged and using all my superpowers to try to make this thing go. I was Man, I'm just tired. There's a sense of like- You don't have any superpowers. You're right. There's a sense of like, Am I making any difference at all here? I remember one of the things that I did intentionally was to get plugged into a good consultation group. That was with other therapists who were also working with youth and families. That just helped a ton to feel not alone, even though maybe that situation at that time didn't change significantly. My experience of it did change because of having that support. It was really helpful.

Connor
It might seem like a small change at the time, but you go, that's what you needed to get out of the spiral right there.

Uriah
Absolutely. My perception of you, knowing you for a few years, is that you're actually quite good at self-care and prioritizing things that are important to keep you at your best. What do you think are some best practices for therapists listening to this that they could consider from small things to maybe more significant things.

Connor
Yeah. Something I remember a time when I was first starting out, when I was very anxious about growing my practice to take care of my family. I have four kids, and so sometimes even just health insurance, I feel the demand of that. Sure. Oh, my gosh, how may I get this engine going? But I remember feeling that so acutely, and I would work on Sundays and on Fridays. I'd work six days a week. I remember just reaching that same point where I'm like, I can't do this anymore. It was hard because I still felt like, oh, my gosh, everything's going to fall apart if I change anything. I can't afford to change anything. I imagine that's the same place that we're talking about here. It just felt overwhelming. Luckily, my therapist at the time was like... I think the thing that he said to me that stuck out most was, Connor, I don't think things are going to fall apart the way that you think they're going to fall apart. That There was something in the fact that he's a therapist, too, and he understands that same pressure to help me to change some things that helped me to consider creatively, Okay, if I could change this, how would I do it? What I started to do is take Fridays off and Sundays off. Every Wednesday, I don't go into work until about 11:00 or 12:00, and I just ride my bike. It's time away from the phone. Often, I'm in the mountains where There's no reception or anything, and it just washes everything away for a minute. As hard as it is, there's times when I go, Oh, I could be seeing clients during that time. There are times when I'm stressed, and I'm like, I could be taking care of things that are on my plate. Just like that whole learned helplessness scenario you go, how much empowerment does it give me, though, to be able to say no and to pull away and to just feel like myself? I'm not a psychologist. I'm not I'm a business owner right now. I'm just a body on a giant mountain, and that's it. That experience has been what helps me to push harder the times that I'm working. I think that's the thing I didn't understand before is I thought it was a one-to-one thing that I have to spend a certain amount of time on things in order to get it done. But this is actually something that you've talked to me about, too, of that even though it takes maybe a moment, for example, to set up a virtual assistant, let's say, or to delegate something. When you think smarter like that, it makes you think about time differently. Not that you have to work hourly for yourself. You have to put a certain amount of time in it, something. But sometimes the thing you need is to pull away and to go, What do I need to do and what do I not need to do? You can't think about that. That's a hard problem to solve when you're stressed or when you're in it. Sometimes you have to pull out of the trench to go, Oh, that's what it looks like. That's what the landscape is. I don't have to worry this, but this is the thing I need to worry about. Anyway, I take Wednesday mornings off, and then Friday through Sunday are just me and the family and not worrying about work. Again, I think that's what helps me to push harder on the days when I am working, knowing that I actually have a lever that's going to be pulled on Wednesday morning where I can stop.

Uriah
I like that. I'm actually rereading a book right now called Time Off. It's a long book, but it has a lot of case studies from historical figures from a long time ago and more recent folks. The idea is that you need to develop what they call a rest ethic in addition to your work ethic, because a lot of times, and they have a bunch of cool stories, but a lot of times, part of productivity and getting things done is actually taking a walk in the woods or doing things that don't look like work, but they're actually... They add to your ability to make a make a contribution. It's really a pretty cool concept. Then they also talk about noble leisure, which is something we've definitely lost sight of, certainly in North America.

Connor
It makes it sound really good, too, that term noble leisure.

Uriah
Yeah, noble leisure. It means not just necessarily sitting in a hammock with a margarita in your hand, but maybe you're in your garage building something, or maybe you are doing something that is active, but it's also restful and rejuvenating. Because one of the things I often ask The people that I talk to, and it's usually therapists who own their own practice, is what are your hobbies? What do you do for fun? We can talk about work all day long, but what do you do outside of that? If there's nothing there, also, when did you take a vacation last? But if there's no vacations planned or in the recent past and there's no hobbies or things that you enjoy spending your time on, then you might be losing your way just a little bit and probably inching towards It's some burnout, I would think.

Connor
Right. That's interesting. No leisure. The idea of when you're not doing something, you're not really not doing anything. Your mind's working out a problem. It's figuring something out. It's doing something that's for your benefit. Some part of me resists the idea of having to make a productivity argument for a non-productive time, for example, to go, Oh, this is good for me to go on a bike ride because it's going to help me work. It's like, Okay, am I just a machine? But on the other hand, you go, Well, if I need to make the argument, I can. There's passive processing going on. Your mind is passively working through the problems that you need to fix when you do that. When you engage in play, you are trying to work through the most important problems that you have that are holding space in your mind. But on the other side, you go, it doesn't need to be productive in order for it to feel beneficial to you as a person that is healing to you or that helps you enter a creative space or access more of who you are and all those things. But yeah, that's really interesting.

Uriah
The way I look at it is prioritizing some of these things just for the enjoyment of the thing, but then also understanding this actually has a a secondary benefit as well. That's not the primary reason to go for a bike ride, but it's like, Oh, this is probably going to help me be the best version of myself in all areas of my life.

Connor
I could feel that to, again, reference our time when we got together on a retreat with the group of guys that we were at. How many of us? Five, seven?

Uriah
Five or six? Yeah.

Connor
There was an impulse towards creative space where we just don't want to do anything, where you just want to enjoy a good meal or hang out, talk, connect, and go out by going on a hike or having fun in some way. But there was an equal impulse to reflect in that time, it felt like some hunger for time to just connect with another person or to work something out and to tool it over. I felt that the same thing. I think those same impulses are part of what we need when we're burnt out is this connection that's not just about, Hey, how are you doing? Blah, blah, blah, surface talk, but that there's a hunger there, maybe in both parties, for some rejuvenation or reflection in some way.

Uriah
Definitely. Some open space, some time to just reflect and connect is good. For sure. I hope a A lot of people are listening to this episode because these are important topics and we need to be intentional about these things. I always try to think, I make a joke about, if I'm overworked, I got to talk to my boss because something's not working. And then I'm like, the joke is that I'm the boss, right? If I'm working too hard or I'm not making enough money, it's because I need to make a decision.

Connor
Who's making these decisions?

Uriah
Exactly. I know not everybody listening to this podcast works for yourself. I understand that. But if something in your life is not working to the point where you feel trapped or you feel consistently overwhelmed, or you just can't go on, it's absolutely time to take a look at what you have control over and make some changes. Because honestly, life is too short to live in a state of burnout, or depression, or whatever that looks like.

Connor
I would say the first step on that spiral upward is not to try to problem-solve. It's to pull away and connect to find ways. Even if it's something as simple as call your mom, call your brother, call somebody, pull away, let yourself cool down. Because when we're in that fight or flight mode, that place of helplessness where we're just burnt out from constant demand, it is the worst place to try to make a decision. We can't. It's impossible. That's what also in this survey, again, they talked about is that most therapists, their chosen way to deal with burnout is that they reach out to other therapists for support. They try to reconnect. I think that's something that we all feel intuitively. How do we do that? That's certainly the same space that I want to create for my own practice, where there's some freedom to casually just experience connection and experience help as we reach out to each other. Something that I think is worth creating space for more in our world.

Uriah
That's awesome. This is not an intentional transition, but if somebody's listening to this and you figure you need to make some change, maybe you need to expand your team and get some help with the things that you're trying to manage in your practice. Maybe that looks like hiring a virtual assistant. That's what we do here at Productive Therapist. Maybe it also looks like improving the tools and the processes that you have in your practice. Looking at whether or not there are some things you can automate in your workflows, and maybe that looks like using a better EHR. Or an EHR, if you have none at this point. Obviously, simple practice, I'm a huge fan, and it makes life so much easier in a lot of different ways.

Connor
Being on that receiving side to the end of what you're saying, I've taken so long to make those changes you're talking about there about. I remember when I got my first VA, it took me so long. Actually, my own brother was the one who was like, Connor, why haven't you done that yet? You're the one answering all the consultation calls or whatever. Do you realize you charge a lot per hour? You're saying you're spending time, but it's like that was that feeling of going, I can't let any... It's like I'm holding juggling 10 objects. If I move one of these things, everything's going to come down. But the reality was the opposite. It was so much relief when I made that change, when I started to do that. You don't realize in the moment how much more of yourself you're going to be able to access when you make a change like that. Very much, I'm on that side of it, too, with you.

Uriah
It's so easy to do too much for too long. If you have your own private practice, you just naturally step into doing all the things from the accounting to the networking to the marketing to cleaning the stains out of the carpet. Then all of a sudden, you're like, Why do I hate my life? Well, maybe because you're doing everything and you don't have a break. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way. That's what I'm saying. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing this information today. I really appreciate it. It's insightful and interesting and concerning to hear those stats from the Simple Practice study. I hope with the various different things that you and I are both doing, we can make a small dent in that, at least for the people who work in our... Who we support in in our practices and the people we influence outside of that. All right. Where can people go to find out more about you if they are curious about your co-practice and different things you have going on?

Connor
Sure. Herecounseling.com is what I do, H-E-R RE, Here Counseling. We're in Los Angeles. We have members' shop options, but we also have retreats that come up where therapists can connect with each other and support each other, learn marketing skills, those kinds of things. I have a marketing book out that helps therapists with their marketing. It's 108 pages, talks all about digital marketing, and feels like it gives a lot of good attention to some of the emotional side of that, of how to actually make those changes in a lasting way. You can check that out, too.

Uriah
That's Awesome. We'll put the link to that in the show notes. Yeah, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Connor
All right. Talk to you later. Bye.