Depth Marketing For Therapists

Uriah
Hello, Jen. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen
Hey, Uriah. Thanks for having me.

Uriah
Absolutely. I'm thrilled. Honestly, one of the best things about having this podcast is being able to shut myself in a room and talk to myself, but then also meet really cool people like you. So I'm super excited about our conversation.

Jen
Yeah, me too. And also, isn't that kind of what is so awesome about therapy? I know you don't practice anymore, but being shed in a room, asking people their deep, dark secrets, I dig. Yeah, I do.

Uriah
I would also do it, like, in nature and on a mountaintop. I wish I would have done more of that in my career. In the early days, I worked in residential treatment for teens. And on one occasion this is kind of a bunny trail already, but on one occasion, I got to go on a wilderness therapeutic wilderness trip. And that was cool to do therapy outside of the walls of a therapy office and an inspiring location.

Jen
Yes.

Uriah
Sign me up.

Jen
I love that I'll go down the buddy trail with you unless you really get a stick to the main road. One of the things I love about what I do, and just for the context of your audience, I'm a marketing consultant for therapists, helping them build marketing funnels, which is just fancy speak for how somebody goes to not knowing you, to being like, that is my therapist. I have to work with that person. But one of the things I love doing about is I get deep in with other people's business, and so I learn about all of these different therapeutic orientations and how do they do them. So I don't have to take an Ifs training because I've helped multiple Ifs people write their websites and talking about wilderness. I have a bunch of Colorado therapists I'm working with right now, and one who's actually local to me, but do a lot of nature as co therapist work, which is very cool because I do not like the outdoors. And I'm like, maybe I'm starting to heal my own relationship with nature through helping them write their copy.

Uriah
That's so interesting. And I love how metaphors come into writing copy and marketing. And if you do something that has imagery kind of built into it, that helps a lot, for sure. We have this joke in my family that my wife likes to be on the edge of nature. Doesn't want to be in it. Like, she doesn't want to be in the jungle. She wants to be above the jungle looking into the from a safe distance. So I can appreciate that.

Jen
Yeah. Just thinking of this, like, car camping was created for people like me. Although I really thought car camping was like, you slept in your car, but that's not apparently exactly what it means. You still have to sleep in nature.

Uriah
I mean, there's options. There's options nowadays. Van life is a thing that's true. So I have to ask you a question, and this is a surprise question, but it'll be an easy one for you. I'm just curious about the story. If there's a story about why you named your business a thinker's guide.

Jen
There is a story. And we talked a little bit before we started recording, and you were like, we can go off script. We can go wherever we want. You're right. I want to live my life off script, so that suits me. I like surprise questions. So in order to understand a Thinker's guide, we have to actually scroll back to my early childhood because I am that kind of therapist. I grew up in a very conservative, very unhealthy religious tradition that my therapist refers to as a cult. And I think she's probably right. And so I have a lot of wounding in my own life around religious trauma. And because my intellect is my favorite defense, I decided I'm just going to think my way out of this. I read the Bible back and forth, trying to make it make sense. I went to college and majored in religion. What do you do with a religion major? You should probably go to divinity school. I don't know if I want to be a pastor, but that's what I'll do. The next step. And so most of my early formation, both in unhealthy ways and I think really healing ways, was in. How do you make sense of religious text? How do you make sense of the stories people tell themselves both to heal but also to harm, and how do you untangle those things? And so at probably the end of 2019, we were talking a little bit about this before we hit record. I hired my first VA. Was really excited. I was like, moving my practice to Maryland. I'd been practicing in Virginia. It was a commute. We just bought a house. I was like, all right, I'm really going to settle. I'm probably going to lose. Some people have to do all this work. And then COVID happened that spring, and everybody was moving online. I was like, oh, I guess I no longer need any new clients. Like, what am I going to do with all this time? I thought I would be spending marketing and having to transition people. And I had built my website, which is Therapy for Thinkers. It's my private practice website.

Uriah
I like that.

Jen
Yeah. Had written it, listened to a lot of Hamilton as inspiration. And I thought, oh, what do I do next? I will do what everybody in the therapist space seemed to be doing. I either can become an influencer or I'll start a podcast. I'll start a podcast. And I don't know that that podcast was really intentionally meant to bring me clients. It was more a way to work out how COVID felt reflective of so much of my childhood and the unhealthy religious pieces. And so I don't know it's twelve episodes. If anybody actually really wants to listen to it's on my website, my private practice website, working through what does it mean to go through apocalypse? And what's the beauty of apocalypse? It's revelation. It's being able to see the things that you haven't been able to see before. And I named that podcast a Thinker's Guide to the Apocalypse. And so I did all of this, and I was really starting to get into all of the digital marketing. And how does all of this work? The structure was really fascinating to me, and I didn't want to stop creating content. And I don't know that my therapist had a strict intervention, but she was like, Jen, you cannot take on any more clients. I was seeing 24 people weekly. Sometimes people would come more frequently because again, it was COVID. I'm in the DMV, the DC metro area. There was a lot globally going on, but there was also just a lot going on in this space.

Uriah
You were maxed out.

Jen
Yes. So it's like, I can't have clients. What can I do? I'll start a whole new business. And since I already created a logo for this podcast, I'll call it a Thinker's Guide. I don't know what it will be. A Thinker's Guide to maybe just whatever strikes my fancy.

Uriah
It's a whole library of things. It's a whole genre of things. Yeah.

Jen
So long winded answer to your no.

Uriah
That's fantastic. I love it. I love therapyforthinkers.com. I have to go check that out. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So you started this consulting business in what year was that technically? Was it 2020 or 21?

Jen
So it was 2020.

Uriah
Yeah. Okay. And what was your intention? You wanted to continue creating content and continue the work. So what was, like, the initial idea, and then how did it change or did it change?

Jen
So there were two pieces. I don't meet with them as frequently anymore, but I had a group of business friends who are all therapists who are working to either build their practice or up level their practices. And they read my website, which Uriah. It's my secret hope that it will make you cry a little bit. That's always my intent when I'm writing. And so had my friends read my like, how did you do? Like, what did you I'm really I want to know more. How do you write like this? And so I did some one on one work with mostly just people I knew. I felt sort of like a speakeasy that if you knew about me, then maybe we would do some work. And I worked with, I don't know, maybe half a dozen people. Because it's really important to me that if you're going to teach something, you're going to take as much time, as much energy, and frankly, maybe not always as much money, but really invest in. How do I continue to learn? So I can be just a couple of steps ahead, ideally further ahead of the people that I'm helping. And so I started taking a lot of online digital marketing courses. And I don't know if other people have this experience, but if you buy one course off of Facebook ad, like, all of the Facebook ads are like, and don't you want to learn about this? Don't you want to learn about this? I was like, marketing funnels. Yes. Copywriting. Yes. All the things. Email marketing. I don't have an email list. Why would I be emailing anyone? But I want one.

Uriah
And you need the whole collection. You can't succeed unless you have the whole collection.

Jen
Yes. So I started collecting courses and things, and my friend Tiffany, who I've worked with before, Tiffany McLean, for those who are listening, has her great program lean In, Make Bank. She's like, Jen, do you want to come in and do a like I had done a panel for her at some point. I don't remember when, she's like, be like, come in, teach something. I was like, okay, that'd be cool. If I'm going to teach something, I should have something to sell on the back end. And so you're right. You're really getting a flavor of who I am. If I'm going to do that, I'm now going to create a whole program. I did this in, like, two weeks.

Uriah
Oh, my goodness.

Jen
I was like, I'll do all of this. I'll create the program which became marketing with depth. How do you market in a way that is authentic to who you are as a clinician, but also strategically actually works? And how do you not do all of the things? Because I was really in like, oh, my gosh, there's so many things you can do in marketing your business, your practice, whatever it might be. And it just sort of spiraled from there. There was just more and more of like, I really want to teach this to my people. I want them to understand this.

Uriah
I want them to understand that a virtuous spiral. Yes. I honestly love and that's part of my story too. I love the sort of accidental businesses that actually tap into your genius and some portion of what you were kind of made to do. And that's productive therapist for me too, because the plan was very clear. Go to graduate school, become a licensed therapist, do something with that. I guess that's not a terribly clear plan, but that was it, right? And then all of a sudden, I'm owning a virtual assistant business, and I'm like, this suits me very well. I love this. I could talk about this for days and years. So that's great. So I need some clarification on one thing from you. You say that you teach psychotherapists how to distill clinical insight into marketing genius. And I love that collection of words. But I'm curious if you could expand on what that means and how you do that?

Jen
I'm married to a lawyer who will say to me, often in arguments, less poetry, more precision. All right, brilliant. I'll try. Which you weren't saying. That correct. That was my association. So let me back up a little bit. Part of me creating all of the things that I created was I really wanted to help people build their practices. And as I started to help people build their practices, I started to see a lot of themes come up in a lot of, I think, this private practice building space. I think everybody seems to talk about imposter syndrome. If you don't have a podcast or ten episodes on impostor syndrome, like, are you even keeping up? And I started getting really curious about what does that actually look like when it's reflected in your marketing? I know what it looks like clinically. Like, when you're feeling imposter syndrome, you're new. You don't know what to do. There's ways that you might either overcompensate or shrivel back. And I started to be curious, like, I wonder if that happens in people's websites, in their Psych Today profiles, what can I see reflected? And it turns out, yes, a lot of that is reflected. And there are other pieces. So often when people are feeling imposter syndrome, their copy tends to be generic. And generic doesn't mean poorly written. It just means that it looks like all the other people's writing today is a really easy place to see this. You can't get through ten profiles without Brene Brown being quoted or really honor the transformative journey that you're on.

Uriah
It hurts my soul.

Jen
There's things that we just say, I'm surrounded by psychoanalysts in the DMV, and a lot of them will talk about, I'm really holding that, or, how does that land for you? There's just these phrases that become a part of our lexicon, and there's a way in which they hide who we are. And so as I was finding so not just zone of genius of marketing, but, wow, I really like the messaging piece of marketing. Like, that's my favorite. It actually feels the most clinical to me. You won't be surprised. CBT was like, never my shtick. Maybe if it was, I'd like more funnel building stuff. But I really wanted to figure out, how do I help people message in an authentic way? And a huge piece of that is really getting into the clinical relationship. Not disclosing HIPAA or Phi, but being able to speak in your messaging the way that you would speak to the client sitting in front of you. Right. And most of us are not going to go to, let's talk about the drama triangle in your family of origin and how your mother is deeply enmeshed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Especially not in the first session that we're going to aim to mirror what we're hearing from the client and then still speak authentically to who we are and how we like to show up in the room. And so coming back to your original question, like, what does this constellation of words mean? Really good, effective, strategic marketing is deeply attuned to the other. And attunement isn't just about being able to accurately read what's going on for the other person. It's about knowing what's going on for you, too, and finding a way to meet them and invite them to meet you. And that's what I think really good marketing does.

Uriah
I think that's brilliant. What is the challenge in making that happen? Because you mentioned how a lot of us, maybe at one point we've written a Psychology Today profile or a bio on our site or just copy for our site, that when you look at it, you're like, it doesn't pop, it doesn't communicate, you don't feel anything. It's not a story. Right? Nobody's going to be compelled by it. I have to track down this psychedelic profile that I found recently that was the most unique, the most compelling, and it's something that would both the profile pick and the words on the profile. You either love this person and they're for you, or you are like, what is this? I'm running away? Not that it has to be that extreme, but it does still seem like it's challenging for us as therapists to put ourselves into our marketing and to speak to clients in the way that they talk and or in a way that reflects, like you said, clinical insights. What's the challenge there, and how can we kind of get past that?

Jen
Do we have ten more episodes to talk?

Uriah
Yeah, right. A miniseries, maybe?

Jen
It's interesting. A student actually just sent me a Psych Today profile. It's in California. I was like, I wonder if this is the same one, if we're talking about the same person.

Uriah
Was the image, like, sort of cartoon? But it's like a dark, sort of Adams Family kind of person.

Jen
It's probably the same person, which how.

Uriah
Great that we're even talking about that person right now.

Jen
Well, so let's maybe if that person is listening I'm obsessed with your profile. One of my favorite students sent it to me. Like you nailed it. Don't buy anything from me. You know what you're doing.

Uriah
Yeah.

Jen
This is a good example, though. So part of the way I like to think about really good messaging is it provides good informed consent. Do I know if you're a good fit for me or not? The marketing term for that is, like, good marketing repels, which freaks most therapists out because we want to be inclusive and et cetera, et cetera. But it really is about allowing people to make an informed decision. What this person did and what I aim to help my students do in all of the programs and courses that I offer is, let's get to the place that we understand where your voice has been silenced, because ultimately, I can give you lots of strategy. I can give you lots of suggestions. I can help you tweak your copy. I have a pretty strong voice. There's a reason I've never done done for you copywriting. As much as I love to write, I cannot mimic other people. I just cannot. And so I don't want my voice to overwhelm my students. And if we're going to get to that place, we have to get to a place of where have you been taught? Where has it been instilled for you that you need to get quiet here? Right. And that, I think, is both the most appealing and the most difficult piece, because most therapists want to be able to do our own healing and want to be able to grow and expand. It doesn't feel good to grow and expand, though. It can be painful. It requires us to look at things that we might not want to look at. And so that's really the first step. Sometimes the way people talk about it, that I'll hear students and other people I engage with talk about it is like, well, but I just don't know how to write like you. I'm not as good of a writer. I'm not this, I'm not that, which is just BS. That's not true. I would say I am probably the fifth best writer in my membership community. I'm pretty good. But when people really step into it, it's like, wow, this is what needed to be said. So that soul piece of really being able to get into internally, what's getting in your way, that's the first and most important piece. And for the most part, if you can do that, most therapists actually know intuitively how to walk somebody through what in marketing is a sales process. We call it a consult call. But most people know how to do that just by sheer nature of who they are and why they chose this field. Right. So there are times, though, that people just on a real strategic level, people don't therapists don't sell enough, and honestly, they're not directive enough. So I was checking out your website last night. I was like, look at all the cost to action. You go, you're right. Like, I know where to go. I can click all around. And therapists aren't great, by and large, by specifically telling somebody, I want you to do this next. And so strategically, a really strong call to action is really important on any piece of content. So somebody knows the next step to take. They're not just going to intuit it from your passive attempt to communicate to them the final piece in terms of writing, once you've worked through some of the voice piece and you're prepared, I'm going to tell somebody what to do at the end of this is really choosing poetry over precision, right? Sometimes we want to get to a place of like, this is your clinical diagnosis and this is what you're struggling with, and here's how I'm going to treat it. And that's not bad, but it's not compelling, right?

Uriah
Little cold, little clinical.

Jen
Yeah. So I'll give you a great example of a tagline from one of my students who is an Ifs level three. So she's the one teaching me all about it. And I feel more compelled about Ifs after working through her website. But she has this beautiful tagline that what she helps people do is heal from the ordinary. I would have never thought I need to heal from the ordinary, but immediately I'm like, what ordinary things do I need to heal from? I want to do that. Right? And what she's really doing is working with people who have a lot of anxious, avoidant attachment, who get overwhelmed, tend to be perfectionistic, can never do it good enough. She could say that I help anxious women in the St. Louis area, whatever. She could write that, it's fine, but it doesn't hook you in the same way as heal from the ordinary.

Uriah
Four words that make you go, oh, yes. Tell me more. And that's good copywriting. It is good copywriting in a nutshell. I want to read poetry. Poetry. That's so interesting. I love copywriting, so I'm the kind of person that literally it's kind of embarrassing sometimes, but I'll literally walk around or drive around, and I will notice and comment on messaging and marketing materials, billboards, anything, and I'm like, I could make that better. You know what? What they're missing there is this. And then I'll rewrite it on the spot for them. And I'm so proud of myself, funny enough, that when it comes to doing my own copywriting, I write what I think is just brilliant or just so, like, I'm oh, this is really clear, and I didn't try to be too clever, and it's really good. And then I'll show it to somebody else, and they'll be like, yeah, but I'm like, oh, my gosh. What I'm trying to say here is all the things that you're talking about, it's simple, but it's hard, right, when you explain it. And if you walk someone through this process in one of your programs, sure that they will get there and then be able to communicate and write words that compel their ideal clients to reach out. I don't know what I'm trying to say here. I just find it interesting and also very tricky at times to get it.

Jen
Right. I am not a nerd. I aspire to be a nerd someday. I'm from a family of like I'm even like, oh, we should maybe talk about Nintendo and how I only can play Yoshi's Wooly World. I'll rage quit on everything. And so I come from a family of engineers, and the way I speak to them is wildly different than the way I speak to my friends who are artists and musicians who poetry is like bread and water, like, a necessary component, and it's a different way than I speak to my husband who precision matters. Right. And so it's just thinking part of your zone of genius is being able to organize and understand and see on a wider scale. And I no offense to all the therapists out there, but I think by and large, that is not always how our minds work. And so I'm sort of actually wondering about the disconnect between where your zone of genius meets and where your ideal reader is at. And it's so hard to bridge genius to a place where a person is not quite there to take in all of the brilliance you have to offer.

Uriah
That's interesting. I'm going to have to think on.

Jen
That one, which I'll compare it to psychotherapy, and this is what I do day in and day out. In fact, I did a talk for a writing group earlier today. They're like, I work with medical trauma. This is what I do. I said, yeah, they don't have language for that. You're going to teach them that. But that's probably three to six months in, especially if you do longer term work. What we have to do is name the problem people know in this current moment. Right, and that can be hard to do because in therapy, we often don't want to co sign on the problem people think they have. In couples therapy, the problem is communication. If only we could communicate better and you could teach us the skills, then we would be okay. Most I think couples therapists would be like, there's some attachment stuff going on, and maybe there is some communication, but it's more maybe that both of your inner children are like, triggering each other. You can't say that here because that's not where they're at. And so it can be difficult when you sit in the deep and regardless of what the area of expertise is to have to come back up to essentially top of funnel content strategy.

Uriah
Yeah, I can see what you're saying there. Definitely. Yeah. I also sometimes reflect on what seems like a fact, is that most of us as therapists, we don't want to lean on the pain points either. So it's a little bit different from what you're talking about. But we want to kind of present the solution and the hope and the healing and the change, but we don't want to paint the picture of the struggle and say, like, hey, is this you? I kind of know what that might be like. So that takes effort to do because that's not the part we want to focus.

Jen
Yeah. I'm wondering since you like copywriting, do you have a favorite copywriting formula? Do you know what I mean by know?

Uriah
I would say I do. And the one that comes to mind is Ada. That's the one I use most often. But to be honest with you, I haven't gone deep enough to where I can tell you all the I can probably tell you more family systems theories than copywriting frameworks at this point, but I do low key study it and then try to apply it as best as I can. So I tend to use Ada the most, which let me see if I can remember what it is. Attention, interest, desire, and action.

Jen
You nailed that.

Uriah
Did I get it? Okay, good.

Jen
Yeah.

Uriah
And the person that I follow the most I don't know, it just happens to be this way, is Neville Madora from Copywriting Course. He was on this podcast and that was super fun. I'm a member of his community, and it's a cool place where you can go and you could submit any kind of copy if you're like a paying member, whether it's a cold email or a sales page or whatever it is. And then the community will give you feedback. It's pretty fantastic.

Jen
It is fantastic.

Uriah
Yeah. What's your favorite?

Jen
Oh, I like that formula. Problem agitate discredit solution. And let me therapize it for you. Problem clients. Presenting problem. And remember, presenting problem is what they know is presenting problem. Amplify the pain, amplify what's going on, validate everything they've tried that hasn't worked. And then you offer the solution, and the solution is never you. In fact, the solution is not even therapy as a generic concept or your course as a particular thing. The solution is, here's what needs to transform in your life. And hey, by the way, I have a container that can hold you as you go through that transformation. It's not dependent on me and it's not even dependent on you. It's a process that you get to go through.

Uriah
I like that.

Jen
I like towns because you really do get to hit people where it hurts.

Uriah
But that's where they live. So it's like it's not like you're knocking them down. You're just being like, hey, I see where you of I don't know if.

Jen
You had this experience when you took crisis, like, crisis intervention, and California is a little different. You guys are kind of like your own country, it feels like, to me. But in my crisis intervention course, the person who taught it used to run crisis intervention in, um, Baltimore is a whole other conversation. But one of the things that she hammered home for us is you have to acknowledge the pain. You say the word suicide before they say the word. Like you really want to put it out there and you can't be scared. You got to be tough. And all this I don't want to make them think it if they weren't thinking it. Just like if they were thinking it, it's going to feel good for them that you've said it. Right, and I think that's true, particularly when we're talking about copywriting for any sort of healing process. And not all copywriting is for healing, right? I bought a really fancy stroller just before my kid was born. I didn't have. A pain of what stroller to get. I wanted to get the bougie, cool, easy to use stroller. That yeah. So I got the upper baby. I was like, look at me, I'm so fancy. The ada works really well there, but when you're talking about something particularly where people have psychological defenses around pads just works better.

Uriah
That's great. I'm going to look into that a little bit more. The other one that comes to mind, and I use this very specifically, like, if you go and look at my [email protected], I bet you'd be able to be like, yes, I know that's story brand, and I do think that's a really good framework. It doesn't work all the time, but I very much like that. And I like the idea, which kind of meshes well with what you were saying a minute ago of like, hey, you're not selling 50 minutes of therapy. You're selling a transformation. And guess what? I'm a guide who can help you get that transformation. I'm not the answer, but I'm helping you find the answer. And that's the story brand thing of like, be the guide that never fails me when I'm going, is this am I being the guide here or am I being the oh, the client's, the hero, right? Always good reminder.

Jen
Yeah, it's interesting. I like Donald Miller a lot and Blue like, Jazz is still, like, one of my solid comfort reads. So Blue Lake Jazz is a memoir for people who are listening who might not be familiar. And I love that he started off as a memorialist, if that's how you say it. Right.

Uriah
And then memoirist, I don't know.

Jen
Thank you. That sounds more correct. But then he landed over here and I think the other thing just to hold in mind, his story, really, it doesn't just sell, it invites connection. And that's currently the fad is more relational marketing. But I also think that is what marketing is. It's about a relationship. It's about helping people get their needs met, whether it's buying all of the supplies for some more in the summer or finding a therapist who they can be really vulnerable with, even if it scares the stuffing out of them.

Uriah
Yeah, that's good. And you know what I like about all of this is that thus far, artificial intelligence can't quite communicate with soul, tell a compelling story like you and I can.

Jen
No, so far you're right. So me and Chat GP talk on a regular basis, and I only did it for about two weeks, but it would use feeling language and it's like, I'm really sorry. And I'm like, you feel sorry, chachi P. I thought you didn't have feelings. Can we talk about, like, I do not have feelings. I had whatever, that generic thing that their programmers put in. And I wanted to argue with, like, you were just intellectualizing. I understand you are not an actual being, but the people who programmed you think you don't have feelings, but they infused feeling into you recognize it, right? So I'm sorry, that is not just a bunny trail, that's like a whole other ski stuff.

Uriah
No worries. I do still use it. I used it the other day to write some headlines for an email I was going to send and I puzzled together, put together some words that were inspired by Chat GBT but then infused with a little bit of my marketing genius. Yeah, this is such an interesting stuff. I could talk about this literally all day long. Me too. It's fascinating. So tell me and tell my listeners a little bit about the programs you have and the services you offer, because I know you said you don't do done for you copywriting, which is good to know, but you help other people and tell me about that. I'm super curious.

Jen
So there's kind of three areas where I like to help people. So there's soul. And a lot of the soul work that I do is really with my therapy clients and I don't have room. I promise my admin, I will not take on any new people because there is no room for them. Really. Frankly, the soul, the mindset piece is infused in all of my courses and programs. But the other two places where I really spend a lot of focus are marketing strategy. Like what do you actually need to know and what actually works consistently for therapists and having a framework to understand that. Because I think often therapists do that binary of all or nothing. Like I don't want to do any marketing. Like I'll just stay on insurance. Like I don't want to do that. Do I have to have a website or I am blogging and I think I'm going to start a video blog, probably a YouTube channel, maybe also a podcast. I really should do more on Instagram. Do you think I should be on TikTok? I'm trying to figure out LinkedIn. It's like, whoa, you don't have too much, it's too much. And you can do some of those things, but you're not going to be able to do them effectively. And so in terms of strategy, there's two main programs that I have. There's client centered marketing where we're really working to build a minimal viable marketing funnel. So the least amount of work you need to do to fill up your caseload. Many of the people I work with don't want to just have a full caseload. They want to have a caseload that is delightful and wonderful. They want to have a website that feels like, I don't know if you lurk in Facebook groups when people post their offices and you're like, I have office goals.

Uriah
Like, wow, that's like a warm hug.

Jen
Yes. And I think people feel that way about their websites. You really want it to authentically represent you not just in design, but also in the content. And so that full marketing funnel, particularly for people who want to scale, is attunement Distilled, which is my flagship program. And I am still a stranger on the Internet for most of the people who are listening to you and me right now. And so I'm a big fan of giving away as much as possible for free, particularly since there is so much stuff to know about marketing. So if people are interested in continuing to deepen a relationship with me, instagram is a really good place to come check me out. I screw around on TikTok because TikTok's fun, but I don't know that it's a coherent marketing strategy.

Uriah
Right?

Jen
But I'm on TikTok and Instagram at a thinker's guide, and then if people are wanting to be like, I don't know if I want to do a lot of social gem, but I'm ready to maybe get to know you a little bit better, there's two free options. One's, a little bit of time. One's, 48 minutes and like, 52 seconds. So Little Bit of Time is my version of Choose Your Own Marketing Adventure, which is my quiz.

Uriah
I think her so good, by the way.

Jen
I wanted to write a novel. You write? I was like, I don't have time to write a novel. I got to market. I'll just put it in here. So it's a quiz based on what is your marketing attachment style. And you get a lot of strategy, you get a lot of mindset, you get pretty long emails, so you got to be prepared for that, but they're pretty fun to read. So there's the quiz, and then there's also Full Caseload Unlocked, where I'm giving away my three secrets of what every full fee private practice, full therapist needs to know to have a practice that feels clinically and financially rich.

Uriah
That's awesome. And that one is at AThinkersGuide.com/productive.

Jen
Yes. Yeah. So just for your people.

Uriah
Perfect. I love it. Full caseload, unlocked. I like that. Honestly, the quiz is so good. I love the framing of using the attachment, and I see a lot of stuff online, and I'm compelled to click some things and not other things, like we all are. But when I read just like your little landing page for the quiz, hey, therapist, get the good tissues ready for your tears of joy. Your marketing genius is that extraordinary. I was like, oh, how can I not take this quiz?

Jen
Side note, ada right there.

Uriah
Yeah, for sure. It stands out. That's great. I love it. Well, thank you for what you're doing, and I hope you become TikTok famous from all of this. No, I'm kidding. I don't wish that on anybody. Actually.

Jen
Maybe, like, moderately not famous, but a person in one of your third places that you're like, I know that face. I don't know that person's name, but I know that face that would feel good to me, like, be known, but.

Uriah
Not like yes, absolutely.

Jen
On a pedestal.

Uriah
I tell my kids sometimes they're teenagers, two daughters, and I tell them that I'm very famous in a super small part of the Internet.

Jen
Awesome.

Uriah
But right in that little corner of the Internet, I'm the business. I don't really say that that's silly.

Jen
But I would love that. I'm sure your kids would probably roll their eyes.

Uriah
I used to have a shirt, and I need to find it again. It was like a bright red shirt, and it just said, I'm big in Europe. And I was like, I just thought that was know some people. Like, nobody in the United States knows this person, but like, in Finland oh, my gosh. Selling out stadiums.

Jen
So here's now my wish for myself, I just want that T shirt. I don't need to be big anywhere. I just want to have the T shirt that says I'm big somewhere.

Uriah
Yeah. Maybe we can both there's space in Europe for both of us to be ridiculously huge. Yeah.

Jen
I would love that.

Uriah
Oh, my gosh, that's great.

Jen
Well, thank you for having me.

Uriah
Yes, thank you for this conversation and for what you do. It's inspired and interesting, and I love it. So once again, if you want to check out the free cool things, especially full caseload, unlocked athinkersguide.com/Productive, check it out. Thanks for being on the show.

Jen
Thanks. Bye.