Stabilize & Scale Your Group Practice ft. Shaelene Kite

Hi there! This is Uriah. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.

Today I have the privilege of talking to my good friend Shaelene Kite, and I hope you enjoy this episode.

So Shaelene is a DBT certified, clinician registered yoga teacher, approved clinical supervisor and the owner of DBT of South Jersey. She leads a group practice of 20 that has continued to grow rapidly since its opening in 2018. DBT of South Jersey hit its 1st 1 million plus in revenue in just two short years after opening its doors, and continues to grow in revenue in subsequent months and years.

Shaelene is also a speaker, educator and trainer who recently launched her second business, Rebel Mentee, for helping other practice owners learn, grow and thrive both clinically and professionally.

Enjoy my conversation with Shaelene!

Shaelene, welcome to the podcast.

Shaelene
Hi, thanks for having me! Super happy to be here.

Uriah
Yes, always happy to talk to you in person or over the interwebs.

Shaelene
I know. How lucky of us. We saw each other so many times this year.

Uriah
Yeah, that was fantastic. Really?

Shaelene
Yeah, it was like three times all over the country.

Uriah
We should do that again next year. Yeah, this is a busy year. I traveled and went to I actually had nine trips, business and personal, and five of those were conferences and retreats and whatnot.

Shaelene
It was cool.

Uriah
How about you?

Shaelene
You had more than me in the business side, but I was around I think I was around, like, eight trips this year. I have one more in November. Finally. Like, just personal, but yeah, it's been busy and it's getting busy. Like, are you signing up for trips for the next two years? Because I am.

Uriah
So no, I have not signed up for anything. No, I signed up for you, but I did did you know this? I created a resource on the Productive website with all the events that I could find for next year for therapist. Yeah.

Shaelene
So you made the list, so you know what's out there? You haven't signed up. Are you just sitting back and waiting for the right one to a little.

Uriah
Bit, but I've been invited to quite a few events, but this year was a little bit too much for me, to be honest.

Shaelene
Hectic a little too much.

Uriah
And I'm like, okay, well, I want to conserve my energy and figure out what's the most important thing to attend, who are my friends that I want to support, obviously.

Shaelene
Right.

Uriah
And all that. So I haven't decided yet.

Shaelene
Good for you, though, for holding back before you decide, because what I've done is signed up for seven trips across the next two years, all work related. And then I'm already like, wait, when am I going to have my life? I am doing what I did this year. So important to think about taking a step back and taking it all in before you decide.

Uriah
Right. I'm also trying to decide, like, do I want to go to therapist events or do I just want to go to Costa Rica?

Shaelene
That too. I know. It's like, I forgot that I could just my husband was like, well, you know, we could go on this, because I've been remembering Nashville, particularly in Hawaii. That first week with the conference, I was like, man, this is fun, but I'm feeling so drained just from people so much, the output energy. And my husband was like, you know, we can go on these trips without work. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, I forgot about that just because there's been so many fun work things going on. And it just flipped my mind. I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I just want to go to Costa Rica. But I don't need to go to a conference there.

Uriah
Well, I will look forward to your travel plans as well as mine to see what they think of.

Shaelene
Yes, me too.

Uriah
So I thought it would be fun to just kind of have a conversation about something that we're both interested in, which is Traction and the entrepreneurial operating system, which for anybody who hasn't heard that, it kind of feels like an up and coming trend.

Shaelene
It is. People are talking about it.

Uriah
Yeah, especially for group practices. But it's essentially a business framework created by Gino Wickman, author of Traction, Rocket Fuel, several other books. And I found it super helpful, and I'm currently implementing it with productive therapist and hopefully in the near future we'll do so with my group practice. And I know you've got some experience with that, so I'm curious to ask you, and I'll answer this too, how did you first hear about it? What was your first introduction to Traction and us?

Shaelene
My first introduction was a little over a year ago. Katie May, like, my homegirl, my business buddy, we talk like every single day about what we're doing. We run similar group practices because we both do DBT. So that just naturally started happening over the pandemic, and we would just talk, like, what resources were using. And so one of the many business books that either of us were reading, those were all things that we would share. I remember her texting me and saying, I'm reading this book called Traction, and I think this is going to be a game changer for me. So I did what most people in my position would do. I ordered it and then I let it sit on my shelf for six to seven months. And then she went on and hired like, an integrator from EOS to come in and really flipped her company upside down. And I was kind of watching that from the outside and just seeing the changes that she was making. I thought to myself, like, man, she's really into this. It's easy to come across all of the different business books and then get kind of overwhelmed with like, which of these do I want to take and implement?

Shaelene
They all sound great, they all have great tools, but do I really want to take this on and change my whole system and recognizing, as I did read the book and start making some of the changes in my own group practice, like, there hasn't been as many business things as I've read. I hadn't read anything that felt like a container for my own business that would help me funnel things in the right direction, and that was what most drew me to it. So I had a friend that did it. It was working out well for her. I got the book, read it, and now I would say I'm in the muck of implementing it, which gets kind of sticky, but that's how it started.

Uriah
Well said. I'm in the muck of implementing. It doesn't matter how many business books you read or how many continuing education courses you consume to make an analogy there or comparison. It matters what you actually implement and put into practice, whether in your clinical work or with your business. That's everything. I'm a junkie when it comes to online education and business books.

Shaelene
Yeah.

Uriah
But I have slowed down my consumption of the content because I actually want to focus more on the things that I'm going to actually apply. Which makes logical sense, right?

Shaelene
Yeah, it's easy to I mean, it's interesting you're saying that because you're doing that with your travel stuff. You're like stepping back conserving and then implementing what is going to give you the most momentum or return on your own. I always think, like return on investment for money. But I think lately as a group practice owner, I'm thinking, what is return on my investment as a person with energy and time and burnout and all of those things? And so that's something to pay attention to.

Uriah
That's a valuable idea. I've actually started in the last two years, I've started rereading certain books every year, and then those might change, but for the last couple of years, I've read Profit First every year. And believe it or not, I get more from it each year. And then Traction is one of those books. I'm rereading it now with my Productive Therapist Leadership Team, and we're going through it together. Previously, I just read it myself and talked to my business coach about it. Now we're actually doing it together. And funny enough, one of the results of that was my leadership team here at Productive Therapist telling me, like, hey, uriah, you shouldn't be the integrator. They're like, we read this and you're the visionary.

Shaelene
All right, but that's so helpful because we're going through that too. So I read the book and then I had my team read what the Heck is EOS, which is like the book for the employees to read. I was really proud of myself that I had them read it, and I did not read it myself. I was like, okay, this is for this purpose. I don't have to know every single thing. I don't need to know exactly what's in here because this is what it's for. And so we had our first day long deep dive quarterly meeting to try and come up with our issues list and what the vision was and be more transparent about seeing. So that way they understood. I just felt like the leadership team, I was wanting them to carry or hold limits or hold their supervisors or people they were responsible for to certain standards, but they didn't understand them. They didn't understand the reason behind them or what that contributed to in the long term. And so getting everyone on the same page has been really helpful because it does help me my team help keep me in place with that.

Shaelene
Like, well, that's not really a quarter. That's not a rock within this quarter. So we're not working on that right now, Shailene. Because it's so easy to get distracted by all the things. So I can relate to the feeling, and I've found it super helpful when they're like, no, Shailen, you're not actually this is not your role. Okay, I'll sit down.

Uriah
It's great to have people on your team that can help you understand how to be in the right role and do the best work that you can do. That's really a kind thing to do. So I think that's one of the values of EOS for me, I always like a system, like a process, all those kinds of things. It does seem to be kind of like, I don't know, holistic is the right word, but a framework that covers all the areas of your business and gives you a way to understand and operate everything better than you have been doing and give hopefully everybody on the team similar language to relate and understand each other. So I like all of that because profit versus wonderful, but it really just focuses on this one aspect, cash management strategy for the business owner. Other books focus on one aspect of leadership or whatever it might be. This is kind of a is there a better way?

Shaelene
It's all encompassing. It hits all of the parts. Yeah, I agree. And it's also helped me recognize, like, you talked about how your team said you're not the integrator of the visionary. Right. So when you get all of these things down on paper or in some sort of visual framework, it helps me to see places that I was in, like, seven different roles that I'm like, oh, this is why marketing is kind of meh, because I'm one of the people who's responsible for it, and I don't have the time or the bandwidth. And so I want to hire someone to be in charge of the marketing department, and I want to hire someone to be in charge of HR, because right now it's me and it's my office manager and it's my assistant. And so it also helps to just put like, these are the imperative parts of any business. These are the seats that are there to fill. And so by looking at that, I was kind of like, oh, this makes so much sense. Of course, marketing is kind of mad right now. I'm responsible, and I don't have time.

Uriah
I can relate to that so much. I always thought that I was, like, a marketing nerd and that I was interested in marketing. It's actually not true. I like other aspects of business better than that. And if somebody else can do it for me, I'm actually specifically social media and Google AdWords and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, no, I'm not going to do it.

Shaelene
Yeah, so it's been really cool to help me recognize where there are holes, especially being in the spot of we're heading into five years in the group practice, and so we've grown and figuring things out more as opposed to when I got started, I was just kind of like, winging a lot of it, for sure.

Uriah
Yeah. I'm curious with people who are your friends and colleagues and maybe even folks that you consult with, do you see group practice owners building and scaling to a certain point and then hitting problems that they don't know how to deal with? What do you see some of those pain points coming up?

Shaelene
Yeah, so Katie and I talk about this a lot, mainly because we put like a version of EOS together, but made it for group practice owners, stabilize and scale. And we kind of reflected on all of the problems and pain points that we had, places where we thought that our growth was stunted. I think that at least for my own testimony and the people around me that I've consulted with, it seems somewhere around like, the million dollar revenue mark or ten employees. Because then once you get past that, your success is a really great clinician. And any following you've had, that's part of what got you to be so successful in the first place. Right. So, like, in our area, I was the only DBT clinician. And then I opened this practice, so I had this following, and then people trusted me, and there was a need, and so it was easy for people to come in and fill up, and we really didn't have to think about things too much before we went to the next growth point. OK, we have to hire an admin. We need more space. But then as they got bigger, the costs were more, the systems were more complicated.

Shaelene
You have more people, so not everyone is on the same page. And without clarifying those and being more concise and just making decisions more with precision versus the flow of how things are going, then you start to have more growing pains. Like, all of a sudden for us, it came up with expanding to a second location because we were going from 1015 employees to 20 employees at two different locations and then adding another benefit. It was like, oh, you know, everyone wants to have retirement. And I just actually, through implementing EOS, I would say this is like one of the most painful and helpful things that happened. Just like, really understanding the data that supports making a change. So what used to happen before is I would be like, oh, there's plenty of money, we're growing. Everyone's full on to the next thing, whatever that is. But then when I wanted to add retirement, I was like, you know, I don't think we can actually do this. I feel like the money is a little bit tighter. Let me look and see what's going on. When I looked and saw what was going on, out of my 100% of the clinical team, only 30% of them were hitting their fulltime session target.

Shaelene
Okay, 30%. And I was like, what? Like, how did this happen? Well, it happens gradually, and there was a drift, and there wasn't people checking in and accountability. And so now one of the pieces of EOS is about data and making data driven decisions. And I think as group practice owners, even when starting, I always heard about you need to have a dashboard, but it's like, what is on the dashboard? How do you make a dashboard that works for you? Am I tracking these numbers because your eye attracts them, or am I tracking them because they're actually relevant for me and making my next decision? And so we started tracking sessions every week, and then we started giving therapists access so they could see them, because then it was like, well, you guys are not even going to be able to keep your benefits, your health care benefits you're not even meeting. So I also in care for them. I think that's been really helpful too. I don't think it's always a comfortable conversation because therapists, everyone's coming usually from community agency, and I think the group practice owners are very much like, I don't want to be pushing numbers.

Shaelene
And at the same time, the other side of that is there's no investment in the staff if there's not enough clients coming in. So that was something that I learned the hard way in implementing EOS. Those things kind of happen at the same time. But I think the growth in employees and in numbers, there's only so far you can get by with just this is the way that the energy is flowing.

Uriah
Yes, I definitely hear you saying that up to about ten employees and maybe right around a million dollars of revenue, you can kind of make things up as you go and piece things together, but after that, or much further than that, you need a playbook and you need an understanding of how you're building it's. Like, to use an analogy of a house, you have to have a really strong foundation for the whole thing to really come together and actually look and perform the way you want it to look and perform. That makes sense. Yeah.

Shaelene
And even thinking about, like, private, even thinking about, like, profit firsts in the profit margins that come in and what you're used to in those first four years, five years before the million dollar mark, before you have all these employees, it's a bigger number. So the percentage might be the same, the percentage might go down, and then the number value might go up. But, like, that's the money that you're doing stuff with. And so as that number shrinks, you have to be more as a percentage shrinks. Right. You have to be more precise with your decisions or else you are just winging it and then it's going to show up somewhere. Hopefully we want to find out sooner rather than later.

Uriah
I'm sure you've heard this story, but I've definitely heard from people who have grown a group practice to a decent size and for various reasons they've realized that they're actually making less or about the same amount of money as they were as a solo practice owner.

Shaelene
Why did I do this?

Uriah
That's a tragedy, right?

Shaelene
That is a tragedy.

Uriah
And then you've also taken on all the risk and all the headaches of managing people. Yeah, that's not what I want for myself or for any of my colleagues. Right. So I'm curious actually, I want to answer this question myself, laughing at myself. I think the things that I found most useful from Traction, from EOS so far and I've sort of practiced EOS lite for a number of years. It's only more recently that I'm kind of going all in like Katie is and you are the level ten meetings, which is basically just having a really good detailed structure for meetings, super helpful. And then also the Vision Traction Organizer which as you know, is like essentially two page or one page document that kind of lays out everything. And along with that the roadmap, including your vision, your long term goals, your quarterly goals, all those kind of things and your issues and all that kind of stuff. And then the thing that I've done religiously for the last several years is quarterly planning for the quarterly rocks, which is just gold, right? I do that for my personal life. I do that for both of my businesses and then I review those every single week.

Uriah
So just those components, if somebody read the book, I think, and implementation.

Shaelene
Yeah. And you just took that, that would.

Uriah
Be a really good start.

Shaelene
For me because I'm in it right now. And again, it doesn't feel pretty, but it feels productive in the sense of I'm going to have a way better handle on things and I'm going to be able to scale this in a way that is really sustainable in the long term and can benefit not just me, but benefit my staff. I'm like so morbid when I interview people and I make job offers, I'm like, listen, I want you to die here. Like, I want this to be your last job. And my core staff who I hired a while ago, they make jokes like, you're going to bury me under the couch. I'm like, what is wrong with us? We are so dark.

Uriah
You store your logo for your own business, don't you?

Shaelene
I know what it's like to not feel appreciated. And I really want I've made this change to be a group practice owner, to make the life changes that I want. But I want to work at a place and provide a place of work that really takes care of the therapist and really makes it a choice that they choose to come here and that they want to be here. And so because of that, even though it feels like messy right now, the data point and knowing your numbers and everyone having a number that they're responsible for, that kind of blew my mind. Okay, every therapist is responsible for 25 clinical hours, but what is the intake coordinator responsible for? Well, they're responsible for 40% conversion rate. Does she know that? And where is that getting tracked? And when it's an issue, at what point do we talk about it and then how do we problemsolve it? And then so that was something that I was like, okay, wow, everyone in the business is responsible for some sort of number. And it also makes me, again, think more like concise. And precisely the words that keep coming up where I think, how do I take whatever the problem is, whatever the goal I want for this person, and make it to something that's measurable?

Shaelene
So even down to our staff, again, we're in DBP practice. I want everyone to have two session tapes coded within six months of being hired that are considered passing in DBT. That's another number that they're responsible for. And their supervisors know that they're responsible for training their steps. So it just goes on and on. And I think having people know that that is their part to the bigger picture of the puzzle. In some ways, again, it doesn't feel great talking about it all of the time, but I do think that people really appreciate, the majority of people appreciate the transparency around it and knowing the expectation and why it matters in the long run, which goes back to vision. So when I am explaining vision in EOS to people in group practice ownership, I specifically think about like, everyone paddling. Is everyone paddling in the right direction or are we in the canoe? And some people think we're going east and some people think we're going west, and we're just kind of spinning around in a circle. And so some of the exercises around, we don't clarifying your vision or clarifying your values and asking your team, what do you think our vision is?

Shaelene
What do you think our values are? And then seeing that you get like 20 different answers, you think, oh, okay, good thing we did this so we can all filter this in and get on the same page. So I would probably say the data component, the vision, although the meetings are that's super helpful as well, the structure of the meetings, they feel way more effective than they used to be.

Uriah
I really appreciate listening to you talk about the scorecards and holding people accountable for certain numbers. That's been my biggest area of weakness for both of my businesses and something I need to work on going forward. And I think most people do want to know how they're doing. Am I performing my job. Where am I at? I was actually talking to one of my therapist last week about her retention numbers, and she was just like, I just want to know how am I doing? Where am I in comparison to other therapists? And I said, of course I think you want to compare yourself to your own performance, not to therapist next door, but everybody kind of wants to know that and have clear expectations about what is required, what is expected. Then they can either live up to them or know when they're not and get some encouragement and some support in getting there.

Shaelene
Well, and then the other side of that is like having staff who are you know, when I realized, okay, this is happening, it's like, not only can I not add another benefit, and there's an expectation that that's going to happen because I said it was going to happen. So that's a problem. But then there's also people who are receiving if you're here based on full time status and you're getting PTO and things that are not just associated with healthcare, you know, monthly stipends for this, that, and the other, and even down to, like, bringing snacks in, all of that gets budgeted in. And so if somebody I don't want to get to the place where I'm all of a sudden having a conversation with someone saying, like, listen, by the end of the month, your averages are low. You're not going to be eligible for health care anymore. In ways, I think people, especially as therapists, hear the numbers talk, and we're like, this doesn't feel good. But then the other side is, like, really doing a disservice. If we know that it's not something that we can sustain within the business, we're really going to everyone's going to suffer, not just that one person.

Shaelene
So it's a hard conversation, but it's like the telling your friend that they've got something in their teeth, like, are you going to ignore it, or are you going to be like, hey, you got something happening.

Uriah
That's a good one. Yeah. I'm putting together the puzzle pieces that you're laying out there. That's not the right way to say that, but if you want to create a group practice, and you have created a group practice that people can come, they can stay, they can be taken care of, they can be buried under the couch. You can't do that unless it's organized systematized and it's profitable and all those things are in place. Otherwise, you know you're not going to be around in five years.

Shaelene
Yeah.

Uriah
So I like that those things go together. That makes a lot of sense. This is random, but I saw an article, I was doing some research and I went on reddit, which I never do, but I was doing some I was doing some research, and I found this article about a large group practice in San Francisco, which is close to where I am. And it was like, 40 clinicians in this group practice, and they were, like, going to be the first practice in mental health practice in the state that was moving from moving to a co op where everybody would own the practice together. And I was like, oh, that's really cool. This was literally written about in March of 2022. And so I clicked the link to go over to that data practices website to see like, oh, what's this about? Guess what I saw. Can you guess?

Shaelene
It's gone. It's not there anymore.

Uriah
Closed. Yeah, it says something about Jews of endemic or whatnot.

Shaelene
But I was like, I would love to though.

Uriah
They started years ago, but they were.

Shaelene
Like, I know, right?

Uriah
They transitioned to the co op model and something didn't work. But I thought that was yeah.

Shaelene
I think again, we said that EOS is really a model for running any business. Again, it's like if you've got a lemonade stand, you need money to buy lemons and sugar. So it's really hard. And again, I'm in the muck, so to speak. I just had a hard meeting before coming into this podcast. Somebody just doesn't feel that hitting 25 hours is something that's sustainable and that's fine, but it's better that we were able to separate that out as opposed to and find what's best for the practice and what's best for each person individually without taking it personally. And I think when we talk about the numbers part specifically, I think that's the hardest part that gives the most reward because it just gives so much clarity. Like, what is the health of your business right now? You'll know, by looking at your numbers, not necessarily anything else.

Uriah
The hardest part that gives the best reward. Like that.

Shaelene
Yeah, I mean, because even like, what are other things that contribute to the downfall of a practice? Like culture retention, staff, happiness, all of those can be translated into numbers, right? One of the measurables for me is trying to average the net promoter score. Like, on a scale of one to ten, how likely are you to recommend that your friend work here? That my goal is to have it be somewhere between like an eight and nine or above. So I measure that every quarter. That's the measurable. And I'm responsible for that number. And then turnover, we can track what's our employee retention rate. All of these things can still they might not feel like they have to connect to numbers, but I don't know. Just all comes back to that for me, which is ironic because I hate math, don't think I'm good at it. But once I'm talking about numbers in regard to the business, I'm like, okay, this is helpful because it's giving me really clear information.

Uriah
I like that. I would love to hear you talk about stabilizing scale, the program that you created with Katie May and that's all about yeah.

Shaelene
So stabilizing scale came to. Fruition, like most great ideas over a plate of tacos and margarita for myself. Yeah. So Katie had gone through the program more in depth. She had gone through EOS integration more in depth. But it's really expensive. I don't know if you've ever looked into hiring someone or do you do that?

Uriah
Not yet, no.

Shaelene
Okay. Yeah, it's really pricey ends. And then there's always the even though this is for any business, it's still not geared towards group practice owners. So we talked about the idea of creating the program for group practice owners, and we talked about initially, we started out with identifying the pain point area and the ceiling for people who were at a million dollars in revenue or had about ten employees. And so we thought, okay, we're going to create this program and help people scale. And then we set it up, and we went to Nashville, and then there were a bunch of practice owners who were like, I really want to do this, but I don't have ten employees. And I was like, well, that makes sense that you would just want to start correct and not wait until you have a bunch of problems. So we thought about opening up a whole other cohort. So now we do two, and we run them concurrently for people who are growing and need to stabilize before they start to scale. So it's under ten employees or over ten. That kind of determines which group you're in. And then we meet once a quarter online.

Shaelene
And this is only our first time doing it. So, like, tomorrow we meet for day two, actually. So it's still very new, but in that we've already changed a lot of things and started a second cohort that's going to be starting in January. But the whole goal of them is to be able to go through some of those key points of the EOS system, like clarifying the vision, building the dashboard that actually has the data that you need, and knowing how. To use it to make decisions, starting with getting going with the level ten meetings with everyone, getting all of your department and your employees on board speak in the same language, all of that kind of stuff. And then we do one thing that's cool is doing this checkup. So you go through all these different questions, and then you check them off. Like, how great is your business at having clear values? And so you rate yourself on that, and then you get a percentage at the end. And so we do that every quarter so people can see their growth. So it's cool because I just saw the Facebook post before I came in, and someone was like, I didn't feel like I really did much.

Shaelene
I had so much else to do. But then I saw that my percentage change. So that's really cool. So, yeah, stabilize and scale. People will come in and they'll do all of the work during the meeting time. So it's not a bunch of like, watch these videos on your own and don't have support. They'll make the changes live and then we meet. Our goal is like, to do mountain destinations, to just stay with our Stabilizing Skills team. So then we end with an in person retreat to put all the information together.

Uriah
What's the second location? One of them is Colorado. I know that for sure.

Shaelene
Colorado is the first one, and then the next one is going to be in the Cat Skills.

Uriah
Okay.

Shaelene
Upstate New York. Yeah. And then we just, I don't know as we're going through it, and I feel like silly saying it because I'm in it and this is like my program with Katie, but I'm in it and I'm like, this is so good. I wish I had this for me when I was finding all of my stuff out as a group practice owner. It's just a nice mix of learning and handholding, like the right amount with support. So I think it's fabulous.

Uriah
When I hear you talk about it, I'm actually like, shoot, I should sign up for that. Because there's something maybe even when you know the information, there's something about having accountability and support to implement, like we were talking earlier to make it happen. And some of us are honestly better at that than others. And that's okay, that's just normal. But having experts or people who kind of gone before you to walk through, setting up the dashboard, doing all the things super helpful and just learning those.

Shaelene
Things together, like, I know before this was happening, I messaged you and I'm just like, what are your one year, five year s as you set these long term targets? And I'm reading the book and I'm like, yeah, but what are some other examples? And so being around other people where you can say, what are your measurables for your clinical leader position and what are your one year, three year targets? And it's just nice to have other people who know that language. But it does seem like it's up and coming. More people are talking about it.

Uriah
Yeah, definitely. I mean, the group practice owners who are actively working on growing their practice, they're looking for support and resources all the time because they are expanding into areas where they've never been before. And that's why we provide virtual assistants to productive therapists to help primarily group practices grow and then outgrow us. But it's so cool that there's a lot of resources for us to do that because even five years or so.

Shaelene
Yeah.

Uriah
Well, thank you so much. This is cool. It was very fun to talk to you. As far as your own practice and your own business, as well as Stabilizing scale, where should people go? I'll put all this in the show notes, but where would you sure.

Shaelene
So Rebelmente.com, that's my consulting and mental health training company. So through there, I showcase the stabilize and scale offers and always share what I'm doing there, any conferences that I'm a part of and trainings that I'm doing that are related to DBT, yoga and trauma. And then my group practice is DBT of South Jersey. And something that's relevant for everyone, as there are, at least right now, two free resources every month for anybody, anywhere, family support skills, and then monthly DT skills sessions just to create more access to virtual. And, yeah, we just want to try and get as much help out there as we possibly can. Check that out too. And on Instagram. Both of those places: Rebelmente and DBT South Jersey.

Uriah
Perfect. And then I'll also include the link to my events list for 2023, which.

Shaelene
Includes that's a good one.

Uriah
Stabilizing scale. Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. It was great to talk to you.

Shaelene
You too. Thank you!