Bringing Clarity To Your Financial Goals ft. David Frank

Uriah
David Frank is a financial planner for therapists through the firm he founded, Turning Point Financial Life Planning. He helps therapists navigate every element of their financial lives, from understanding your practice PNL and building a personal budget to managing student loan debt and investing retirement and everything in between. But don't let his love for the tax code and spreadsheets scare you off. You're just as likely to find him with his nose buried in one of Pima Sheldon's books as reading up on the latest financial planning techniques. David, welcome to the show.

David
Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Uriah
Yeah, it's good to talk to you. It was September of 2021 where we actually got to meet in person.

David
Right.

Uriah
I had to look back because it seems like it was ages ago, but it was only September of last year therapy reimagined conference, which was like a hybrid experience where most people were attending virtually. And then we were like in person, hanging out and doing some things. It was great.

David
Yeah. It was an awesome, really fun event. A good opportunity to meet up in Los Angeles in early fall.

Uriah
It was beautiful for me. That's never a bad idea to meet up in Los Angeles as we're talking today. It's like 73 degrees here and 80 something where you are. Right. Because I'm in Northern California.

David
Yeah. And I'm in Los Angeles proper. It is almost uncomfortably warm. I hate to say that, but it's true.

Uriah
Yeah. Pray for rain. That's what we'll do.

David
Also, that. Yes, we could use the rain. I like the rain.

Uriah
Yes. So today we're going to talk kind of back and forth about a number of things, but kind of some of your favorite topics and generally in the area of bringing clarity to financial goals for therapists. Awesome. We'll kind of vamp and see where we want to go. But I've got some questions for you.

David
Great.

Uriah
This is not much of a confession, but I wanted to tell you that I love talking about money, and that was not always the case for me. I've done some of my own personal work around how I feel and how I think about money, but at this point, I actually really like talking about it. So I do that with my coaching clients and with the productive therapy notes that use our VA services. But I'm stoked to talk to you about all things money.

David
Awesome. Yeah. I love that. I love talking about money. It's taboo. It's taboo for a lot of us. It brings up a lot of stuff. It can be super uncomfortable. And it's really important, especially as a small business owner.

Uriah
It is. And if you don't think about it and you don't look at your numbers and pay attention to certain things, maybe you can share with me what are some of the things you've seen happen to therapists and any small business owner that really wants to turn a blind eye to finances and money numbers.

David
Yeah. Even before we get to that, I think one of the most important things when it comes to money, even you mentioned you didn't always like talking about money. And it's uncomfortable. And I think what I really like to do when I talk to folks is just like, let's bring down sort of the intensity a little bit. Let's relax some of the rigidity that we hold numbers with and all this stuff and just sort of be as okay as we can be and just sort of recognize that some uncomfortable or challenging to hold emotions might show up. And that is totally okay. And just to recognize that when we are in a spot of discomfort, this is kind of a Brene Brown thing, but to normalize being in a situation of discomfort because that's where learning and growth really happen. So just to be willing to do that and to recognize that so much of personal finances and managing your practice finances. Yes, there are some things that you can quote, unquote, get wrong or things that can get a little sideways. But for the most part, it can just be an experiment to see what serves you best to figure out how your practice, how your professional endeavors can best support you living your great life. So that relates to all kinds of things.

Uriah
I like that.

David
But yeah, that's the point.

Uriah
I imagine that sort of mindset that you help people kind of arrive at if they're not already there is really a good starting point for the services that you provide and just conversations about private practice finances and personal finances in general. Right.

David
Yeah, it's tough. Some of this is deep work. What I always tell my colleagues in the financial advisor or financial planning profession, I say I think we do our clients at the service of when we don't recognize how intimate of a conversation this stuff is. Because money is intimate. It touches every aspect of our life from how much are we working? How much time do we have for self care? Can we support ourselves both now and in the future? Can we support our loved ones and those that depend on our earnings both now and in the future? So I think the original question you asked me, what can sort of go wrong or what can happen if you neglect tending to your financial life? Is things like that. Like you wake up one day and realize, oh, I'm not really living a life that I feel good about. I'm stressed out all the time, and I don't entirely know why. I don't have money to save for things like vacations or paying for children's education or even funding your own retirement, things like that. What ultimately ends up happening, I think when you neglect your money, part of your life is that sooner or later some suffering begins to show up. And by the way, that's totally normal. That pain and that discomfort. It isn't like, oh, my God, I'm terrible. I'm never going to be good at money. It's like, okay, this is something that's asking for your attention. It's just like, oh, I'm in some discomfort here. When I open my checking account or my investment account or whatever. It's like I just get overwhelmed and just like, okay, yeah, that's just something that's telling you there's something to look at here.

Uriah
Yeah, that's so good. I remember early on in my solo private practice, just the exercise of trying to plan a vacation and figure out how I was going to take time off multiple days in a row, see zero clients, and then afford to pay for the actual trip. I remember that being very stressful and always thinking to myself, I probably should be setting aside money to pay myself for paid time off, but literally never doing it right. I'm sure I'm not alone with that one, right?

David
No. Oh, God, of course not even I just want to highlight I'm not calling you out, but it's just like, this is the way we talk to ourselves about money so often. It's like with the shoulds this should show up and we start shooting all over ourselves, right? Like, oh, I should be doing this. I should make the Scorp tax election. I encourage folks just to kind of relax with that a little bit and just be like, okay, we get these messages from peers, Facebook groups, society at large, just everywhere. We get all these messages about what we should do and how we should be doing better and how we should have already figured this out. And it's just like, okay, let's try to turn down the volume on some of those voices and just figure out, I think the first step around all this money work and the way I try to help people work on their money, part of life is to look internally first and figure out all these sheds are floating around, but they're pointing to needs. Like, we all have needs around what our life should look like at a very basic level, of course, we need, like, food, shelter, the hierarchy of needs. And there are other needs beyond that. But it's just like, whatever the financial goal or should you have for yourself, whether it's establishing an emergency fund or saving for paid time off or starting a retirement account, making six figures, making seven figures, whatever it is, what I'm really interested in guiding people through is sort of what's the need behind that want. Okay. Money is just a tool for us to lead our lives in certain ways, to do certain things. And one of my favorite quotes around this is from this woman by the name of Sandra Davis. She's in the Bay Area, and she says, people don't have financial goals. They have life goals which have financial implications. And I think I was like, yes. When I heard her say that for the first time, I'm like, Sandra, I'm going to borrow that slash steal it. But I always give her credit for it. But I think it's so right because it's just like it's never about the money chasing after money. Six figures of income, seven figures of income, a million dollars in savings. Whatever it is, it's never about that. It's about the life that gets created as a result of having that resource in your life.

Uriah
Definitely. That's so interesting. Whenever I hear you talk, I think you must perform more like a financial counselor to your clients. But I hear your voice and it's encouraging and it's very positive and affirming. But what I hear you saying is that for people to move from being stuck with I should do this or do that or have this or have that to something more focused on their needs and what's possible and sort of a different kind of frame of mind. I like that a lot.

David
Yes. A couple of years back when I was dreaming of starting this financial planning business and working with therapists, I very sort of nervously brought up this idea to my own therapist I was seeing at the time who I'd been seeing him for, I think, five years at that point. And I was like, Nick, what do you think if I started this business? Because he knew I was thinking about starting the business. But I'm like, what if I focused just on therapist?

Uriah
So you pitched it to your therapist first?

David
Yeah. Well, of course he was never going to work with me to a relationship and all that. But I'm like, no, I just want to know, what do you think? And I was terrified he was going to be like, I don't know, maybe I keep thinking. And he was like, no, that's perfect. You would be great at this. And what he said is I was like, yeah, it's not therapy. And he's like, no, it isn't therapy. But I think the way you work with folks will be therapeutic. And I've latched onto that and I think it's true. And I think one thing, like, if people can take one thing away from this episode, I can't reduce my thoughts to one thing I'm going to go for two. The first is just like whatever your wants or desires are, especially when it comes to money, just curiously explore what about that is important to you? Like what's behind the number or the want? What do you want for your life? And then that allows you to be creative about different ways of reaching that goal because there's likely more than one way to kind of get to that quality or that desired outcome or that experience of living. So that's number one. And number two is just know that there are financial professionals out there who do a lot more than just help you manage your investments. So I call myself a financial planner, but the terms in the financial services industry are so confusing. You need to investigate folks. Look at their website, look at my website, look at some other advisors websites and understand exactly what it is they provide. Because if you think, oh, the only way a financial person is going to want to talk to me and want to help me is when I've saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's not true.

David
There are plenty of advisors that are just that way. They're like, hey, do you have a million dollars to invest with me? Oh, you don't? Okay. Have a great life. And there are fewer of us. But there are plenty of good folks like me who are willing to work with people very holistically. And it is like more coaching. It's not counseling, it's not therapy, but it is very much a coaching relationship. And it's like, let's just look at what's going on for you and how we can make your life better. I facilitate positive change in the life of my clients. And I think that's what therapists do, too. Right? Positive change. Like I'm facilitating it. My toolsets is related to money and numbers and all that stuff and how it relates and interacts with emotions and hopes, dreams and aspirations. And so, yeah, there's financial coaches, there's financial planners, there's financial therapists, even. And we all help folks in a slightly different way. But there are so many great resources out there for folks. Even if you don't have a single dollar, you are ready to invest in the stock market right now.

Uriah
That's a really good tip. Yeah. And with productive therapist is we're always talking about delegating and outsourcing and getting support with the things that are not your natural strengths. So for me, yeah, QuickBooks makes my brain hurt. So I love my bookkeeper and I'm happy to pay him what I pay him every month. And my CPA is super helpful. And my financial adviser, that's sort of my team right there, along with my virtual mentors, financially speaking, like Ramit Sethi and maybe Dave Ramsey and Mike Michalowicz. But those are the people that I trust and rely on to help guide my financial path according to what my lifestyle needs and desires are. But I don't try to do all those things myself, for sure.

David
Yeah, it's a lot. And to go back to the ship for a second, I think so often this just doesn't apply to therapists. This is so many of us that we look at this confusing world of money and finance and accounting and investments, all this stuff, and we just think to ourselves, oh, God, I should really know how to do this. This shouldn't be so confusing and overwhelming to me. And again, it's the should. And it's just like, if you think that what about that thought is important? Or why do you believe that? Because did you learn it in your family of origin, maybe you learned a little bit in many families. Not the case. Did you learn it in elementary school, high school, College, master, your master's program? I'm betting you didn't. I'll bet no one encouraged you to learn this stuff. That's starting to change, thankfully. But if you're in practice today, you probably didn't get any. So just be like, yeah, it is okay not to know how to do this stuff. It is okay to ask for help, right? How often do I need to learn that lesson? So often.

Uriah
So true. And for most people, starting a private practice or any kind of business without a prior background in business or finance or marketing, any of those things, that's not our skill set and it's not our tool set. So it's probably helpful. And I would imagine you advise people to just kind of educate themselves, be open and curious about learning. And that's just a good position to start with.

David
Yes, I totally agree. In my dorky financial planning circles, we have this expression that personal finance is just that it's personal. So it's very infrequently about you must do this or get it right. It's really just like be curious, investigate and explore. And there are a handful of times where you do want to be extra cautious and be sure to work with professionals.

Uriah
Sure.

David
But for the vast majority of situations, yes. Go get your hands dirty, educate yourself, be curious, make some quote unquote mistakes. Mistakes are like the best way to learn, right? You try to keep it within a certain sandbox, right? Like, be thoughtful about it. Like, you don't want to go invest your life savings in Bitcoin, necessarily. I wouldn't suggest that personally. But you can invest a couple of $100 in Bitcoin just to see what that experience is like and see what it's like for you and see what you learn and be like. What else could I learn here?

Uriah
I remember our conversation about cryptocurrency sitting out in the sun there at the hotel. That's something I've been thinking about. And I have a couple of therapist friends who have done quite well with cryptocurrency. And so that's something I'm looking into exploring. So I have a question for you, though. So when you talk to your clients who have achieved some success, however they define that some financial success, maybe even more than they expected they would achieve. How can they sort of adjust to and welcome that and be open to that and even greater success that could come from their work and efforts. Does that make sense?

David
Yeah, I think so. I think not to sound like overly simplistic necessarily, but I think wherever you are in your financial life, whether you're dealing with unexpected abundance. And I talk to a lot of therapists these days since the pandemic who have maybe used the ubiquity of telehealth to launch their own practice because now all of a sudden they don't need to worry about a big office expense because they can work stuff from home. And there's so much need, right. There's just so much need for help right now that so many people are like, I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life. I never really thought I would be making this much money. It's just like, oh, what do I do? And so I think again, sometimes I feel like a broken record on this stuff, but it's just like in that situation, it's like look inward and really get reflective and just investigate your life. Money is something that it's like an exchange. It's like a flow of energy. You can even think of it that way. It's like you're contributing and you're using your gifts to make other people's lives better. And the way they exchange with you is to provide you a degree of financial abundance. And so you're getting this because you're doing good in the world. So now let's look inward and what are your needs? What do you want? What do you need to feel like a whole human being? What does it mean to be living a meaningful and fulfilled life? What does your ideal week or ideal day look like? And how far is your existing day or week deviate from that ideal structure? And then just think creatively, be curious, and just think, what do I really want? What do really want in life?

Uriah
That's a good way to go about it. For some reason. When you were talking, I had a memory of the first time that I saw a private pay client in private practice, and they paid me with cash, and my fee was $95. I think maybe they gave me $100 bill or something like that. They gave me a lot of cash. Right. And I remember thinking and feeling that that was amazing. And I loved that experience. But I think for a good period of time, I didn't necessarily believe that what I had given them. You're talking about the flow of energy or exchange of value. I don't think I believed for a long time that I was actually providing that dollar amount worth of value. So it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with that and understand that I actually was. And the goal was for me to provide even more value than my full fee. Yeah. But yeah, if you can come to terms with that, then it's a lot easier for money to flow from you and to you and all around.

David
Yeah. And that is hard work. I think it is. You get to set your own session, rate, everything. If you have a group practice, you get to set rates for your employees. It is so hard, and it is just a lot of work. It's a lot of internal work. It's sort of like that imposter syndrome, like showing up.

Uriah
Right.

David
And you know what? Impostor syndrome is just something we all experience. Maybe not all of us, but I take Imposter syndrome and that collection of sensations like, oh, I'm not offering enough for what I'm paying. My services aren't worth this. That voice showing up is such good news because it means you are an awesome human being and you care so much and you're doing something important. Exactly. And honor that voice and honor that aspect of that part of your personality to give you feedback. And don't let it be the only voice that you listen to. And don't let it call all of the shots it can call some of the shots. It can contribute. It can be something you honor and take into consideration, but really work with that stuff. That's really important.

Uriah
I believe that's a good reframe. So kind of accept it as a good sign when the Imposter syndrome shows up in that voice, like, who are you to do that? Who are you to make $100,000 or whatever that voice is. Right.

David
And curiosity again, that's just like, oh, you know, when we can have a more loving, compassionate, internal dialogue. I think that's so important. And in the areas of money, it is just as important, if maybe not more important than other areas of our life. Right. It's just like when that voice shows up, it's just like, oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me. And then be curious with yourself, your own internal sort of committee of voices. Be like, can you tell me more about what that is? What is that about? Why are you thinking that? And just be like, okay, great, just be curious about that and then see what other sort of opinions are lurking around in your head, because there's probably a voice in your head that's like $95 is not nearly enough for how high do I work, how much school I went to, all these exams. I passed all the notes and stuff. I have to keep up with the superbill that I have to prepare. So listen to that voice, too. What does that person want to say about what's going on?

Uriah
Just I'm remembering back, and I remember talking to one therapist that I was consulting with, and they said, sorry about that. They told me to set my feet at 125, and I was newly licensed. And I thought, okay, that seems like a lot of money, but okay, I trust you. And you seem to know what you're doing. You've been a psychologist for a long time. And then I remember telling the person that I was subleasing office space from that I intended to set my feet at 125. And she became a friend over time and was an absolutely lovely person. But she told me that I shouldn't do that. Shouldn't, right. Because she charged 120 and she'd been doing therapy for 15 years or whatever it was. And so I immediately thought, oh, you know what? You're right. Comparatively, I'm not nearly as good as you. So I'm going to bump myself from 125 down to 95. That was a very interesting experience that I didn't really grasp what that meant until later. But sometimes that happens in our community of therapists. Right? Like, no, based on this and this, you should not do that.

David
Yeah. Oh, God.

Uriah
So much impact there. Right.

David
That's a gem of a story. Right. And like, I heard, I was attending a webinar a couple of months ago on pricing, actually, of all things. And I forget the guy's name is some Canadian guy, like a pricing guru. This is something that everyone struggles with. And he said, remember, all advice is autobiographical. And I was like, what is this guy doing? What does that mean? And then he explained it. And I'm like, oh, what he meant was especially when people rush to give you advice without really understanding where you're coming from and why you're making the decisions you are, unless they know you really well and they're just rushing to give advice that's advice that they're giving to themselves. Like, it's autobiographical, it's about them, not about you. 100%. Absolutely. And the mistake that it's so easy to fall into this mistake. How do you even begin to think about setting your price? It's so challenging. But if you look out, even if you do a market survey, you go on Psychology Today and you see what other therapists in your area are charging. This sort of implicit assumption you're making is that they've priced their services appropriately and are meeting all of their needs based on the fees that they're setting. And nine times out of ten, that's actually not going to be the case. And there are just so many different variables. Yeah. I don't know. I could talk about this forever, but pricing setting is. There's so much there and just know, like, it's not like, oh, $95. That was a bad decision. You were wrong for having done that. No, that was an experiment you ran. You learned a bunch about it. There's a part of you that said it was too much. Maybe there's a part of you that was saying it was too little and it was just like a waypoint on your journey. But you investigated it, you came back to it. You just didn't make a single decision and then didn't revisit it for 510, 15 years. You re engaged with it. You changed things in response. So this is an ongoing practice, an internal dialogue, an external dialogue. There's a lot here for sure.

Uriah
One of my colleagues that I love to talk to and refer to is Tiffany from hey, Tiffany.com. She's got a podcast called The Money Sessions. And she's also got a program called Lean Inmate Make Bank, which is all about supporting therapists and charging what they're worth and kind of structuring their practice to serve their life. So if you're listening to this and you want more information obviously. Go check out David Frank. We'll give you his website in a bit here. But Tiffany McLean from hey, Tiffany is a great resource.

David
That podcast is golden, by the way. If you're looking for some inspiration, if you're feeling a little unsure about raising your rates or whatever, just go download a couple of episodes of that. And I think you will get so amped up and excited about what is possible and so amazing.

Uriah
So I could talk to you for days, but I have a practical question that I want to throw your way. Maybe two. Okay. And then we'll kind of give people some more information about where to find you. So I talked to my coaching clients and also a business coach about how to understand and calculate profit margin because I want to have a healthy practice and for my situation, I have a group practice. So it's more than just myself. And I want to make sure that I'm not paying too much for overhead and for payroll and those kinds of things. So how do you think about profit margin when you're looking at your clients P and L, profit loss statement and that type of thing?

David
That's such a great question. I don't know if you're going to like my answer or not. There are so many great sort of benchmarking studies and percent you can look at and like, oh, I have a big group practice. Should my profit margin be like 10%? Should it be 30%? Should it be 40%? These are great data points. Like, these benchmarking things are great data points to say, okay, this is a decent range and great. It's a data point to know, where is my profitability relative to ranges or benchmarks. And then you can ask, okay, well, how does that make you feel? Like, legitimately? Like, okay, if your profit margin is higher than the industry average, okay, how does that make you feel? Great, unsure, like you're overcharging. How does that make you feel? And then the second is just like, great. Well, what about the profit margin is important to you? Are you getting your needs met? Are you able to take vacations, paid time off? Are you saving for retirement? Or as I like to call retirement, a point where you make work optional in your life doesn't necessarily mean you go sit on a beach, but it means you don't necessarily have to work anymore. And then it really goes back to what do you want and need? And that's okay if you run a quote unquote low profit margin business and you're paying your clinicians really well and you feel great about that and you have a great team environment and clients are being seen and can afford their services or whatever that means, there's a lot going on there. But if you have a low profit margin and you're getting all of your needs met, awesome. Great. Like, maybe we should increase that profit margin but again, I would just ask you what about having a higher profit margin is important? Like, if there's not anything missing and never anything missing, that's an unlikely spot to get. But it's just like I think they're data points, but they're not definitive guidance.

Uriah
I actually like that answer very much because you're saying that profit margin isn't the most important metric. Take a look at how you're running your business and exactly what you said. Are you getting your needs met and are you taking care of the people that work for you?

David
Yeah, I think that's kind of fantastic. It's clarity, right? It's like it's knowing what the profit margin is, knowing how that compares to benchmarks, and then you get to decide, is that okay? Is that important or is it not?

Uriah
Thank you for sharing that. I like it.

David
Yeah.

Uriah
So one more question. What do you think? And this is kind of one that you might not be prepared for, but just share with me what first comes to your mind. Okay. I know something will pop up.

David
I'm ready.

Uriah
So what do you think wildly successful therapists share in common?

David
Yeah, good question. And by good question, I mean the answer doesn't immediately come to mind have to think about it.

Uriah
You have to define success to really understand. What do you think with the clients that you work with and the ones that you see achieving success on their terms? What do you notice?

David
I think it's openness. It's curiosity, it's willingness. It's a willingness to just be present with whatever is and just to kind of welcome the reality because everything's always in a state of flux and change. This is kind of some Buddhist stuff coming out of me. But really everything in the world is in impermanence and change. Everything is constantly falling apart and then coming back together and falling apart. And the more gently you can hold the reality of your professional life, your personal life, and just kind of roll with the punches, if you will. As life evolves, as pandemics come and go, as financial recessions or financial, the economic cycle comes and goes, as your client load rises and maybe falls and things change. It's just a willingness to see clearly what's the reality of my situation and then being present, sitting with whatever emotions arise, whatever bodily sensations arise, acknowledging that and then responding rather than reacting to what's happening.

Uriah
That's my question. So good. Well, thank you so much for your time. Like I said, we could talk for days about all these things because I like to talk about money and business, defining success and happiness and all these kind of things. So people listening to this are probably thinking, how in the world can I work with David Frank? Please enlighten us.

David
Yeah, well, I hope so. I would love to chat with your listeners more. They can visit my website. It's TurningPointHQ like the abbreviation for headquarters. So TurningPointHQ.com and if they go to my website I have just recently put together this little white paper around seven reframes and mindset shifts that can help reduce money, worry and therapist. I'm super excited about it. So if you've liked some of the ideas that we've talked about today, go download that white paper. You'll get some emails in the weeks that follow and I've done really a lot of work to make those helpful to like. Yeah. Just to help people continue to navigate their money journey. If you'd like to chat with me one on one, there's definitely an ability to do so to schedule an appointment on my website so don't be a stranger.

Uriah
That's perfect. That white paper sounds amazing. I'm going to go download it right now.

David
Perfect.

Uriah
Yeah. And I'll put the links in the show notes to all those things as well.

David
Great.

Uriah
Thanks again, David. I appreciate it.

David
Thank you. It's been great. Chatting.

Uriah
All right. Bye.